Category: Let's talk
Earlier this week there was an item in the news about a British couple who are appealing a 30 day sentence in Dubai for kissing in public.
Earlier last year another British couple were sentenced to time in jail for having sex on a beach (also in Dubai).
It's not uncommon for us to read that one of our citizens has been sentenced to signifficant time in jail/even the death penalty, in some country or other where they have been caught committing a crime for which the sentence is harsh. And invariably there are calls for our government to interveen, and cries of how unfair it is that any british (or feel free to insert your country of origin here) citizen should be subjected to the laws of the country where the offence has been committed.
Should we really be interveening in other countries' justice systems when it involves our own citizens? If the penalty for drug smuggling in Thailand is the death penalty and you're caught smuggling drugs, isn't that the price you pay? These cases are in the media often enough that most people travelling to foreign countries are only too aware of the penalties handed down for committing certain crimes there. And even if we don't agree that some of these acts should be illegal (kissing/having sex in public for instance), is it really for us to say?
Shouldn't we just respect the laws of the country we visit, and accept that violating those laws means we will be subjected to that country's justice system?
Yep, I agree. If you visit another country, you obey its laws. When I go to someone else's house, I obey their rules. Same applies...
I also agree with this. If you want to visit a new country, I would suggest doing some research on their laws before you go. After all, we would expect tourists who visit our country to do the same, wouldn't we?
I think it's a difficult question. for example, someone might not know what is in fact illegal. a lot of things are illegal, and we can't be expected to know and remember all of them.
As a small example, in australia, train ticket inspecters can't hand out fines to tourists without a ticket, because in some countries trains are free and they may not know the law.
Now, it's pretty damned obvious when you go to an australian train station that you must pay to get on, so, are they doing it because they just don't want to pay, or they think they don't have to? we don't know, but we cannot fine them, because they may not know.
While I don't think we should be trying to change the way other countries are, I think it's within a countries rights to use their international weight, if they so choose, to free people overseas.
switzerland recently banned all libyan nationals from entering the country because libya was holding 2 swiss nationals in prison.
Often countries will do bargans with other countries, swapping prisoners for other prisoners, and I approve of this, because if it was an australian citizen, I wouldn't want them to suffer an unjust punishment and I would want my country to do something about it. However I also think that people who commit crimes in other countries should be punished by their own countries with penalties on their passport, or in the case of more serious crimes such as drug trafficking, stried in an australian court.
I also agree that it's important to do research before going to a foreign country, particularly if it's not a Western one. I'd never think that something as normal as kissing in public would be illegal, but again, it's very different culture over there. Likewise, I would hope that if their citizens were to go abroad, that they'd do a bit of research as well. another far more serious example is the men who come here and try to take child brides or at least to have some kind of betrothal ceremony. It's legal in their country, but of course illegal in the United states. Interestingly enough, even within different states, the age of legal concent is different. Some put it at 16, some at 18. Even something as simple as the appropriate age for driving isn't universal across the country. Still, if you're know that you're going to a certain state or country, you should look into it first and se if you can agree with the laws enough to enjoy yourself etc.
I don't think we should just intervene in a country's justice system because our citizens are in trouble there. Instead, we should have nothing to do with countries that send people to jail for kissing?
But what if the person had to go there on a business trip, for family etc? I usually don't think that countries should intervene either, but that was a bit of a ridiculous situation. I mean, if they were just fined or something that would be one thing. But these are foreigners, and as much as I think it's important to take precautions and do research, sometimes, things might escape people's attention.
the laws are very complex in some countries, even in cultures within the same country. it is very difficult to research all laws, but at least try to research decency laws in a country, as well as the big do's and don'ts. there was a chap from shicargo who came over here to the UK and made a joke about a gun being his violin case, as apparntly that was what his city was famous for? of course, he got into a world of shit with our fire arms teams, though he only got a ticking off in the end.
I think there are a couple of points here in the British people's favor:
Firstly Dubai has been aggressively marketed to British tourists as a vacation destination, at least judginb ty the myriad of offers on TravelZoo and other sites advertizing cheap vacation packages to Dubai. Also Dubai relies heavily on the tourist industry since it has little to no oil wealth of its own. As a country relying heavily on western tourists one should think it is firstly in their interest to be lenient and consider the habits and laws of the visiting tourists, since they depend on them so heavily, and secondly to have a mechanism by which the most important rules are advertized to the potential visitor prior to enterting the country, may be have a form on the plane that people have to sign, saying they understand and accept these rules.
If this was a country that did not rely heavily on tourism and it was more of the guest's choice to visit there, I feel it would be different.
Secondly there are a lot of countries full of religious laws and corruption so we have no proof that our citizens get fair or just treatment in their courts.
In Thailand, for instance, it is a much reported stradegy to place items in people's shoping bags at the airport and then send guys out to arreswt them and hold them for a fine of tens of thousands of pounds or face lifetime in jail, the whole court system seems to be in on it.
It is one of the benefits of belonging to major western countries that have a lot of influence that you have some level of protection wherever you go, and justifiably so.
So I think you cannot put a blenkt judgement on people caught for obscure or non obvious crimes and claim it's just their fault, it depends on the country, the custom being broekn, the image that this country is promoting to your nation etc.
Of course, I'm sure it isn't possible to find every law, but surely a law like kissing in public should probably bring about enough news attention to make travellers aware of it. This is just an example. I also think that travellers should be alerted of any harsh, or recent laws of said country by the airline, or customs officials, depending on the traveller's means of travel. If this means that the traveller has to sign a document, so be it.
The same can be said for our countries.
I like the idea of the document and the warnings. that really would help things.
If you're going to have an extensive vacation, or move to, a country notably different than yours, please have enough sense to brush up on their history, politics and laws. It's just good form.
On top of that, as this has been publicized before, it's not like these Brits couldn't have known that previous people from their country were arrested for similar behavior.
its a very tricky situation and perhaps we can't understand it using the westerns prospective. yes, i agree with Bru regarding that dubai is a world tourist attraction. but, this can be hard, considering what the tourist might offend is the islamic law. and it would be quite imposible to put every act on the islamic law down to a simple document that people can agree of before they land on such country. even a simple act of holding hand in some islamic country is bannn. that shows how serious it can be for things like hugging, kissing, and having sex in a public place. not too sure if anything can change, hopefully, by the favour of the world, and the pressure from country like britain and united states, they have a special laws system for tourist. overall, they are a country that heavy dependent on tourist
for instance, in some parts of the UK we have strict anti public drinking laws, though police, if a drinker is foregn, will be leaniant with them, as these are bi-laws mostly and it is not reasonible for a foregn citizen to know this law.
but, most country, or at least most developing country would have the same law. is a social norms, if there're no one drinking in public, you would authomaticly won't practice drinking in public one would think. being a tourist doesn't mean one will transform as a king, and have the free right to do everything that please them.
but, most country, or at least most developing country would have the same law. is a social norms, if there're no one drinking in public, you would authomaticly won't practice drinking in public one would think. being a tourist doesn't mean one will transform as a king, and have the free right to do everything that please them.
I agree completely with B on this.
While some australians have certainly legally trafficked drugs to thailand, there are also cases where innocent people have had drugs planted on them at the airport in australia or thailand, and I'm sure people in other western countries have experienced it too. The court system is corrupt, and people from other countries do not get fair representation or a fair trial.
this isn't right.
Naturally, it's important to do research first. The other side ofthe coin is, that these middle-eastern countries can't on the one hand cry "unfair perceptions”ea while on the other jailx people for kissing, and giving out awards for stoning. So yes, one must obey their laws, but also, as has been pointed out with other groups on these boards, they are solely at fault for the perception problems they create. I think Google's move to close Google.cn, for example, *because of* the imposed sensorship in China, is a good one. Jail people for kissing, while condoning stonings? Fine, but don't come crying to the rest of us when people start drawing assumptions. Rule of thumb, if you go to a middle eastern nation, you can kill, just don't kiss. That's no more discriminatory than others on here have made about blind people ... lol
Maybe the British couple should have been more cautious. If you don't know if something is illegal, even something as mundane sounding as kissing, better to not practice that behavior. I would think that most people know that Dubai is an Islamic country. Just for that reason alone, the couples should have used a heck of a lot more discretion. To me, to not do so just seems disrespectful to the culture. Whether one agrees with Islamic practices or not, is beside the point. Fact is, some countries are more conservative, and they have just as much of a right to enforce their laws as we do in the West. Dislike for some cultural practices doesn't give one the right to disregard them- at least not in my oppinion.
the other fact of the matter is is that when they are in our countries, they don't exactly make the effort to 'do like a roman' as some would put it.
To the above poste, that's one of the things I was going to argue here...
They come to our country and expect that either (a) there ideals besupreme in many cases to ours and we addapt for them. or (b) they bitch and mone and complain when they break a law, or complain and make just as much racket or more than we would in the apposing situation. Its another matter of scails, we can't agree to abide and respect there laws unless they doo the same.
oh, my god, sorry about the spelling errors there, wrote that up fast, didn't think about it all, didn't review it... Hmm, when I'm tired I should review my errors most, as all my spelling bad habbits seem to just majicly come back to haunt me.
You're not the only one Striker, my prior post was pretty piss poor with typing ...
Anyway I can agree with following their customs. However, if some of these places want to compete on the main stage, they're gonna have to change, just as some on here have said about some blind people. And what you all said regarding when they come here, well there was a really good documentary about muslims in Europe attempting to try and enforce their will *after* they were given freedom themselves.
Someone needs to tell 'em to take off the 1Z / diaper, put on some pants, and start being a decent sport for a change, rather than get all bent out of shape when there's a violation in their land, while all the time either refusingto comply elsewhere, or attempting to enforce their culture on everybody else. Don't work that way ...
I don't know. I just think that allowing people to get away with a country's law just because they are foreign is a cultural respect issue. I'm not saying I believe in, or agree with many of these laws, but many people from those countries don't agree with our laws either, and they still have to follow them when they are here.